We were just watching UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) with my friend. He is a fan of ufc. I told him that Jet li would kick their asses. He said no way!!!! He said jetli would get smoked by them. He said these fighters do all kind of fights and they are very strong.

So what do you guys think about this issue. Would UFC fighters really can kick Jet li's ass and others like Jackie Chan, Tony Jaa in real life?

By the way I posted the same topic on Jet li's forum. You can read the answers by going to these link;

Jetli forum-->UFC Vs. Jetli and others

By this do you mean everybody in UFC against Li and Jaa?? If this is the case, then it isn't even a question, the UFC fighters.

One on one is a little harder. Supposedly Jet Li can punch hard for a little guy and we know he's fast, but I'd still have to say MOST of the UFC will defeat him. Jet Li can probably beat some of the lower ranked fighters.

As for Jaa, well I think he can go further. Jaa seems more of a fighter than an actor in his movies and seems like he is a powerful man, more so than Li. I think against stand up fighters, Tony Jaa has a good chance and his Muay Boran can be very affective. I'm just concerned because I don't know about his grappling skills or submissive skills or anything, so against a strong grappler I worry for him. Also, most of Jaa's technique is illegal in UFC, lol.

I think you'll find most of Jaa's stuff illegal in ANY combat sport mate. I cant think of one that allows you to bodily ram both your elbows into someones skull multiple times in a row at massive force.

on the other hand, tony jaa did cripple 40+ stuntmen !! and jet li KO'd like several dozen guys with his wire-assisted kicks in OUATIC !!

Of course I didn't mean that. LOL...

By the way without UFC rules.

Wow..without UFC rules. Well then lets just say that none of the UFC guys WANT to lose to Jaa or they might end up with a skull in two.

well i would say jet li and tony jaa could take on some of the ufc guys but then again alot of those fighters r usally ground fighters so i don't no if jet or tony can handle something like that cuz i no wushu can't really match up to a jiu-jitsuist or a bjj. Tony on the other hand well he is a excellent muay thaiist but he ain't got knowledge of ground fighting either and doing all those flips might not help him much. But to my conclusion tony jaa i think could take on some ufc guys but none of the big named guys (the gracie, tito, chuck,& etc) jet li i'm a little about him.

Yeah, I totally agree with Thedeman87, if Tony had enough prep time, then I think he could hold his own against a lot of fighters in stand up. Also I heard Tony has participated in Muay Thai competitions in the past. However, like you said, it would be a whole different ball game if he got taken to the floor.

Jet Li on the other hand isn't a fighter. Although, he trained in Wushu, which is a martial art, it generally doesn't involve sparring or full contact competitions. So I would imagine Tony would do a lot better than Jet.

But I doubt this will ever happen, so who knows?

If tony does go into the ufc i would want to see if he would do is fancy flips because if he did and it hit it would be sick

seeing as how no one here as actually ever seen tony or jet reallyfight, wouldn't it be better to ask how ting or kham or danny the dog do in a fight? there's a thread here like that. it's actually a fun conversation.

why does everyone always ask "how would <insert martial arts actor here> do against UFC?"

consider this: how would matt hughes do against bj penn? before their first fight, everyone thought matt would wipe the floor with penn. but that's not how things turned out. what about couture and liddell? before their first fight, everyone assumed couture would quickly lose, but that's not what happened.

bottom line: you can't predict who would beat who in a fight. EVER. well... not unless you get to watch their ram muay before the fight, lol

I agree, you never can tell who is the better fighter, or who will beat who unless the two fight NO HOLDS BARRED, no rules, but no way can you say who will win against who until this occurs. But hey theres no harm in speculating or wondering

I'm agree as well, anurak

oh, I may to add, for example,..I saw one of Ken Shamrock's fights. The 42 year olf fighter was unbeaten (as they said) and everyone predicted that he surely would win, but his age was questionable... I forgot who his opponent was, but he was only 25 years old. I believe it was close to the last minute and Ken "Slipped!". His opponent had great timing found the the opportunity and pummeled while on the ground "The Worlds Dagnerous Man".

Everyone predicted wrong, but I guess simple slip can predict your fate....

I meant "The Most Dangerous Man"......

In martial arts, or the field of combat, or fighting, whatever you call it...Its very easy to develop a mentality of trying to be number one, or the best of the best, or to think who is the best of the best. All this has to do with ego, nobody is perfect.. But to face reality is to accept the fact that there is always going to be somebody better and more skilled, always, its inevitable. The best fighter may be on top for awhile but there is always going to be someone whos going to 1up him or her. When you realize this, its very liberating, and you start to understand the deeper meaning of martial arts, fighting, and life as well, which is you win some you lose some, and you learn from the experiences and get better and progress, for life just like martial art is an ongoing process, and when you reach a stumbling block or obstacle, its not the obstacle you must concentrate on but one's own reaction to it, so the question is-- "Are you going to use your stumbling blocks as stepping stones to your goals?" ~Bruce Lee

What about Bruce Lee against a UFC fighter?

I think Bruce would have a great time at it. He's been challenged on many occasions on the streets. And he quickly ended them. In Game of Death, he showed his grappling and ground fighting skills against Kareem. Sure. It's just a movie. But in it, Bruce expressed his philosophy of fighting -- adaptability, staying true to the "no way as way" JKD motto. I think if Bruce had lived a bit longer, we would have seen his skills matured further. Of all the martial artists/movie stars, I believe Bruce would held the respect of the UFC.

Hi ronin,....you have a good way of hitting the mark. I agree with you.

On Bruce and UFC;

Let's face reality, "if" Bruce was alive today, he would be at the age of 63.
Bruce himself had the fear of aging. He had NO wish to live to a ripe old age, BELIEVING himself that he could NOT stand the idea of losing the physical abilities he had strained so hard to achieve. He strongly believed despite of hard physical work, old age will slow down ones ability.

If reality serves us,..."If" Bruce were alive today, he would NOT BE IN the cage ring, but respected as a living legend, an Old Master, An Observer, maybe A Highly Respected MA Fight Judge. Just as ronin mentioned, he would be held the respect of the UFC. He would STILL have the abilities to fight, but not against what ALL UFC fighters.

We can only dream that he is still 32 years old today and in the UFC cage ring. He would reign supreme as Gracie did. I agree with rinin, Bruce would express and apply his "no way as way" of fighting. Therefore, he would win.

We had threads not too long ago about "Martial Artists and Grandmaster who age with grace" and "Old Masters?", discussing their abilities
http://www.tonyjaa.org/forum/index.php?sho...t=0&#entry15391

As for all three, Bruce, Jet Li & Tony vs. UFC, Whoa!, with no rules, I assure someone may be dead...... we can only wish.

CORRECTION: I apologies, I correct myself, I meant that Bruce would be 66 years this year, NOT 63. hehe..

UFC president Dana White has credited Bruce by saying he is "the father of mixed martial arts" So UFC definitely holds some respect to this great man, to the point one of their top heirarchy members gave credit where its due..I think Bruce would love to watch the UFC but not sure if he would actually participate because of what ive read about him and rules in combat, but who knows, i think he wouldve done it, and greatly criticized it, and quite possibly changed alot of it too his "way" of doing things if it had been around in his time, thats just my take. But i do not believe he would be unbeatable, i mean he couldve had a glass jaw..one good hook and hes out who knows? The things is its all assumptions and predictions, we will never know unless he DID it. People say, "well he fought people on the street with no rules and was undefeated!" Thats different, were talking about trained skilled fighters when were reffering to the UFC not street thugs, also try to name someone that Bruce had a decent fight with, a good fighter i mean, you cant! he just fought and sparred with people that at the time were considered to be the best, and the "best" at that time was a complete different ball game to what were reffering to here. Anyways who knows? I think he would do very well none the less, also ive heard rumors that Bruce was an undefeated Boxing champion in high school and that he actually owned a pair of gold gloves, can anyone confirm this? If this is true then i retract what i just said about him not having a "decent" fight.

bruce fought and lost many, many times throughout his life. two notable losses (in america) were to gene labell (who then ended up teaching judo to bruce), and gin foon mark (bruce then became his student for a short period).

street thugs are skilled fighters, many of them are more well-trained and more experienced than the average student in many martial arts schools. UFC fighters are indeed different though because they are professional fighters. but don't ever think that a street fighter is not a skilled fighter.

i'm confused about the thing about owning a pair of gold gloves. are you talking about him being a golden gloves boxing champion? that would be very strange because the golden gloves is an american amateur boxing competition. bruce lived in hong kong during his high school years. and if you're referring to him actually owning a pair of literally gold gloves... then... uhm... did he buy them from a boxing store or have them custom made?

Wrong information Anurak..

Gene Lebell and Bruce Lee NEVER fought, the story was Gene picked bruce up over his head and Lee said "Put me down" and Gene "said I can't because if i do you will kill me" they was Jokeing around in fact if you READ his website Gene and Bruce was Very good friends. Gene said Bruce Loved Newaza and fell in love with the juji Gatame at that time Newaza was not very popular in tune Gene tought Bruce some Judo and some of his dirty catch-as-catch can wrestling and Bruce showed Gene some wing chun traping and such.

Guess we're stuck in the history of Bruce Lee again, huh

Anaruk, Im not stating a fact if he was a boxing champion or if he owned gold gloves, im asking if anyone KNOWS this for a fact, someone told me this and its something i had never heard before, and im wondering if this is true. And when i mean not having a decent fight in his life, im not saying unskilled street fighters...but definitely not up to Bruce's skill, im talking about someone decent that would be up to his level, cuz when you read all the FACTS, he never fought a decent EQUAL opponent, but of course these facts dont cover the entirety of his life and he might very well have, who knows? All he ever fought were little kids on the film sets, other than the fights in his teenage years, and the odd fights with non martial artists', other than that he never had a REAL fight in his life, so to say he could have beaten anyone when in fact he beat nobody is just wrong. As to the Gene Lebell fight, i have to agree that never happened according to FACT, but yes Gene Lebell did get Bruce in a headlock and it was a joke, and they were good friends, but if you want a site that tells IT like IT is about Bruce Lee and all FACT go to www.bruceleedivinewind.com, maybe youve already heard of it, but read EVERYTHING on the site, and the interviews with the authors, then you will start to see the real facts seperated from the hype. heres an excerpt from a topic on the site that discusses Bruce as a FIGHTER this was posted by the Webmaster "DM"---"I'll always stand by opinion that if both were in their primes, Benny Urquidez would have beat the shit out of him simply because by the time Benny was at his prime he had a lot more experience than Lee had, he'd mastered everything there was to master and had whooped 200 capable fighters, then someone says well I think Lee could have beaten him, where's the proof to back up that statement, you think just cuz his friends said he was fast? Cuz he looked great in the movies? Lee's 30+ years of legendary status has really made him more myth than man, did you see that new Tony Jaa film? He kicks a lightbulb out using no wires or anything just like Lee used to do and not only that but he jumped a hell of a lot higher. Some of Lee's feats have been surpassed, his phsyique has been surpassed.
The greatest martial artist of all time is a very bold statement, of course his friends will tell you that cuz none of them had even seen martial arts before and Lee was the one who set the standards for them all, also like Tom has said Lee kicking a 300lb bag to the ceiling is pure bullshit, I agree that is impossible and his little bag from what I remember really was only about 80lbs. There's scraps of footage where he looks fast, clips here and there, people of his time saying he was fast, which he no doubt was, but as evolution goes on it becomes like comparing a 30 year old car to a new one.
When you really admire someone it's not easy to accept all these things but you have to see the humanity side of it too and see what is realistic more than mythological, I've been through all the fanboy stage too like anyone else, you can't not be one until you have been one cuz you'd never see the truth in any of it.
I'll always like Bruce Lee but as time goes on I've seen a more realistic side of things, he may not have been beaten in his life but just like I said, can you name any real martial artists that he had a proper fight with? I'm talking someone good and a real fight with bare fists with real intentions to maim him, there's nobody at all and it's like saying a guy who can punch fast and move well could beat any boxer despite never having a boxing match in his life, the more you realise it the more unreal it all sounds, a great myth but an even greater man.
He definately had the greatest understanding of martial arts and the way it should be done but to say he could beat anyone is purely based on opinions rather than facts, he could have had a glass jaw, it was never tested properly was it.
What about that massive black guy from The Green Mile, I don't remember his name but the guys huge, if he came running at Lee with his only intention being to tear him apart what do you seriously think he could do? He sure as well wouldn't win any grappling moves and one punch from him and he'd be out like a light. Taking out bigger guys is always possible but sometimes it just becomes too unreal, that part is mythological side of Lee. It's too easy to fall into it all.
Lee should be seen as a great guy who knew his stuff, he was a fantastic inventor, a philosopher, he's one of the greatest examples in history of what can be done when you want something so bad, that's what he's all about not this fantasy Lee could beat anyone because he did so in enter the dragon crap, you'd have to be a real moron to assume that based on no facts at all.
I think I've said enough for now, I'll let someone else have a pop."

Sorry if this was a bit long but it goes along the lines of what were talking about, and backs up my logical opinion.

lol, sorry i think its my fault it went in this direction..

LoL, you slay me, haunt. That was quite an extended explanation.

Can you say, Ernest Hemingway? (that's a compliment as a writer)

I liked your piece and you made a good point. Good job!

Thanks for the compliment Maxi, it really made my day (im a martial artist by day, aspiring writer at night, im being serious, lol) Please understand everyone...This one respects Bruce Lee and I am inspired by him everyday, but when you look realistically at the facts you cant really come to a different conclusion, I admire Bruce Lee, the amazing martial artist, philosopher, and human being, not the hype (superhuman legend, etc..)

Bruce Lee is a legend my friend!

JET LI IS SO GOING TO KICK THE THEIR ASS, CAUSE HE FLEXIBLE AND STUFF PLUS THOSE UFC GUYS R JUZ FAT WIT BUFF ARMS. JET AND THE OTHER LIKE TONY AND THEM WILL KICK THE UFC ASS.

yeah i know he is a legend, what i mean to say is that hes become more myth than man.

Your welcome haunt,...
hey, exactly! We, as fans all can relate, admire, and worship. Any man who can alter the course of any genre is a man who truly deserves high respects.



Legend?....
I personally am NOT a big fan of the word "Legend". No disrespect to the writers and believers or the word. It is a BIG word, so over rated, and over publicized. The word "Legend" is a word use by those who want to believe and refer to an individual who is surrounded by myth.

We know that there are other far more greater individuals who have done greater things for the good of mankind and they are NOT GIVEN the title of a "Legend".....Why?....because their image is NOT as marketable. That's right I said it, NOT as marketable.....The ones who gets the title of "Legend" made more money dead than when they were alive.....that's ashame.

If I would give Bruce Lee a great Realistic Title, it would be "A Hero".
not Superhero....means, a GREAT MAN who changed and saved future lives with martial arts.

wait,..what happened to UFC?

we've all gone soooooooo far off topic. we're all to blame, including myself. if we can get back on topic, that would be great. if not, i'd just as soon let this topic die because really it's about actors vs professional fighters, which in my opinion is too subjective for a rational discussion.

plus, if this topic gets excessively irrational, i'm just gonna lock it.

and by the way (i'm continuing with the off-topic, but i have to make an apology and a correction): apologies for getting the gene lebell info wrong. and i was also wrong about bruce fighting gin foon mark. bruce didnt fight gfm; it was one of gfm's students who fought and beat bruce.

My apologies Thawan (I hope you won't mind me calling you by your old name my friend) and to everyone else, 'cause I'll be off topic as I must express a bit further about this.

hauntofmars:

I understand your frustration. Your explanations are well-thought out and they are well-taken. I myself, have often, referred to Bruce, when I aimed to make certain points or comparisons about a martial arts explanation. I agree that there are many misconceptions about the person Bruce. This largely is due to the public who are often uneducated about martial arts, therefore prone to spread false or misguided information. This extend even into the circles of martial artists. This is liken to a claim on a DVD cover "Bruce Lee - The Master of Karate." or as I was asked by gangbangers "So you think you know Karate?" When what they were really referring to is Kung Fu... or to be more technical "Gong Fu" or even further arguable "Shaolin Gong Fu."

I make points about Bruce only on the account that I know, or think that I know these information are accurate. Certainly, we all make mistakes, as sources about Bruce abound in printed literature and the internet. I agree that Bruce has become to many "a legend" and "a myth." This is due, in my opinion, the fault generated by media hype, but mainly by the marketers hungry for profitability from Bruce's fame. (You may recall a terribly made movie "Bruce Lee: The Man, The Myth" played by a Bruce-lookalike Bruce Li, which contrary to its name was made mostly of bogus, miscontrued materials.) Sadly, this was probably the better one of dozens of fake Bruce movies.

Regarding Bruce and western boxing, I don't recall ever reading about the "golden glove" situation. I do however, know, that Bruce has purchased and owned many Joe Lewis' old boxing footage, as he highly respected the man. I also know that Bruce avidly studied this among other Western and European fighting styles, including that of Greco-Roman wrestling. Fans undoubtedly know that Bruce had adapted the footwork from French fencing.

How can you confidently say that Bruce never had a "real" fight or fought one with equal matchup? I'm positive that some of the fights are below par, fought against jealous foes. I agree wholehearted, that Bruce was not the best fighter, that he was invincible. I'm sure, that as cocky as he was, he would agreed that he wasn't the best. Understand, that Bruce's intention was not about being the best but rather about self-perfection. He strived to make a mark with what he believed in. He didn't force it.

Regarding your comparison of Bruce to old model cars. While I understand your point, wouldn't you also agree that 30 years from now, we'll all make this same comparison about Tony. That 30 years from now, someone new will come along surpassing Tony. It isn't right and fair to compare Bruce to Tony or vice versa since each person is only relative to their time. We all bring up examples from the past as reference points for a discussion, not as a fair comparison to one.

Now to the UFC argument. Sure. This is purely speculation as only a real match will tell whether Bruce (or whoever else) can match up with a top UFC contender. So in truth, it's really all a toss up.

For you to make the assumption that the "massive black guy from The Green Mile" can easily whop Bruce is a poor statement. I would think that with your knowledge and understanding of the martial arts, you could make a better argument. Weight, height, strength, as you may recall, are not clear cut advantages. Isn't this true? Isn't this the reason a concerned parent tells his little kid who comes home beaten up after school to take up self-defense? Isn't self-defense about learning how to take advantage of one's own limitations, specifically, weight, size, and strength. I personally know of at least one person who can easily subdue The Green Mile guy.

You may have heard this... Who would win in a fight? A wrestler or a Karate fighter? The answer to this isn't obvious is it? So one cannot say that knowing grappling will guarantee the UFC fight. Nor can one guarantee a victory with arial display of deadly elbows and knees blows.

ronin, for the first time. I'm speechless.

thank you for putting the right words on the "a legend" and "myths".
I couldn't have explained it better myself.

I will leave the UFC debate to you guys, I made my peace.

Wow, some great posts were made in here.

But as far as the 30 year old car theory, is this always the case?? In most cases I can agree. But some people just stay on top even years after they die.

Look at Muhammad Ali. It's been about 30 years since he has retired, yet there isn't a new boxer that has surpassed him (I'm speaking of public figures and who we all know about). Ali is undoubtedly one of the greatest still today. Up there with a few select others. I don't know if there will be more top guys like boxing used to have.

Michael Jordan is still considered the greatest. Lebron was said to be the next MJ but he is not even close to that yet as good as Lebron is. Kobe is definitly closer.

same with guys like Jerry Rice, Hank Aaron, Sugar Ray Robinson, ect. Some guys remain at being the best, though this is my opinion.

I mean look at Nai Khanomtom. He is still hailed as the greatest Thai boxer that ever lived. Also, his ability to spring off one leg and unleash five flying kicks with one leg before landing has never been surpassed. Of course it is only believed he had this ability to strike 5 flying kicks in one spring, yet Thai masters whole-heartedly believe it and still acclaim him as the greatest. Some people are just especially gifted and maybe even ahead of their time. But every now and then a person comes along and dominates whatever they specialize in and STAY at the top long after death.

Again, this is my opinion and for the most part, I think evolution helps people with new abilities. But every now and then, through the older and harder ways of of training and practice and just supereriority, some guys can't be surpassed.

If you take Bruce. He was a huge force physically. Yet he was even greater mentally. And while SOME of his abilities have been surpassed, I still havent seen someone with his speed AND have the same raw power he had together. Doesn't mean he was the best fighter but he did have those traits that I don't think have been passed yet, in my eye. Bruce did alot, but he never did anything to the level Nai Khanomtom acheived, or perhaps like the guy who Jet Li starred as in Fearless, or Wong Fei Hung even. The last two I'm not certain about so correct me if im wrong. But one thing is for sure, mentally and philosophically, in the field of martial arts, Bruce will not be surpassed.

Ok glad to see your opinion and that you respect mine and all but once again, im being misquoted..go read my post again carefully, youlle see that long rant about the "green mile guy" or the car theory is not my own personal thought, but that of Drunken Master of Bruceleedivinewind.com, and your staing it as if its my own opinion. Look closely where i cited that and started with quotations and then ended are all Drunken Masters thought. I posted it here because the topic it is from is called "Bruce Lee as a fighter" it goes along the lines of this topic, which then went extremely off topic towards Bruce Lee, which is mine and others' fault. Now I made my point, and i also stated that i believed that the facts do not cover the entirity of his life, so therefore i personally believe, aside from the facts, that he did have "adequate" and "equal" fights that we do not know of, or that are not stated or known about. Also i understand the fact that size does not always win a fight, and your stating that the statement that i supposedely "made" about the black guy from the Green mile is my own opinion, which is incorrect, i have seen with my own eyes much larger opponents been subdued, KOed, taken down, etc.. by smaller opponents, Drunken Masters' post should be looked at as HIS opinion, NOT MINE, that Bruce Lee is not a legend or myth but a mortal human being, which was the point this one was trying to convey. Keep in mind when i post here i respect everyones opinion, and i carefully read everything i post and make a point to correct any mistakes and that everything i say is explained carefully and not offensive in any way or form. So when i am misquoted or misunderstood, it bothers me because it is not my mistake but it is because someone was not reading carefully, so therefore my own expression of thought that i took the time to write is smeared, and thought to be something else that is incorrect. Thanks alot, Ive stated my opinion on the matter, and im done, but please read carefully next time.

hauntofmars:

Per your interest, I did not make the comments without reading your lengthy post (...or all the posts before that for that matter). I actually read it several times as I had a difficult time differentiating your paragraph breaks.

I'm aware of the "divine wind" Website you mentioned and have visited it several times. I don't regard it as the definitive site about Bruce.

I disagree with you wholeheartedly about Benny beating the shit out of Bruce. Such bull. (I know that this is from a quote... that it's from someone else... not you personally... but I take it you believe it). It's interesting to point out that as someone out to shame Bruce's memory, the accusations are rattled with bitterness and envy.

You made some valid personal thoughts. But I sensed your frustration and anger about "the hype" of Bruce Lee and felt that you chose "Drunken Master's" comments and repaste them here to support and prove your point, therefore I took his comments as a reflection of your own opinions.

As someone who have seen, read, and heard a lot of misconceptions about Bruce -- myself included -- I felt compelled to express and make clear certain points so that others, such as yourself, would understand Bruce in a better light. Bruce did not cared to be a legend, a hero, or a mythical being. I'm almost certain that these were the last things he'd bothered thinking about.

So what is it that makes you so bitter and envious?

I respect Bruce, not merely because of his physical abilities, but more so because he continue to exemplify, even long after his death, a positive ideal of someone who'd succeeded at his goals. He was the first Asian to break the stereotype of what an Asian was then.

So naturally, when you, as someone who expressed a knowledge of the man, is quick to put down his abilities, I'm equally quick to disprove it.

While Bruce may not ever have kicked a 300 lbs. punching bag, it is feasible that this feat can be done. So don't simply disprove it just because you don't think it's possible (I gather you know about Bruce's one-inch punch but believe that it's bogus) (again, I know that this is not your own comments... rather someone else's). You want to see unbelievalbe feats, go watch old footage of Morihei Ueshiba disarming men with swords, (or football players unabled to lift him off the ground... the man was only 98 lbs.) or Mas Oyama's documented undefeated fights, or how he killed four bulls with bare hands.

Ok, cool, you read it well, but it seemed you directed it at me as if i wrote it, which is why i said what i said about reading carefully, can you blame me? So you direct your critique at me after already voicing my opinion, which is that i disagree with the hype and myth of him being this unbeatable superhuman. I do not beleive the one inch punch is bogus or any of his feats for that matter. Then you tell me that you realize this is a quote and not mine, but yet you direct it at me as if it is my own personal opinion, when i have said that i do not agree with all the points made in Drunken Masters little rant, the point i was trying to convey by using Drunken Masters post is that Bruce is not this invincible superhuman that the public and certain people made him to be, hence the MYTH. Now if you choose to not believe that this is my take or view on the matter, thats up to you, i made my point and thats that. I do not understand how you can think, to quote you, that im "bitter and envious", well then you might say "im not reffering to you"...well you worded it out that way, so how do you expect me to react? Why should i be "bitter and envious" of a great but sadly dead man that i admire so much? Can you direct me specifically as to how i am putting Bruce Lee down? In fact i think im lifting him up, besides like you said the last thing he probably wanted was to be remembered as this superhuman myth, isnt that my point? Im stopping here, i made my point and voiced my opinion, im not trying to change anyones minds here, or make them think the way i do about Bruce. This is going more and more off topic so im stopping here.

ronin, my comment to this part: [legend, a hero, mythical being]

Please, I am not bitter (maybe foolish enough to stretch this off-topic)
I winced when I read "hero" was with those unflattering words.

As humble a person as Bruce Lee maybe, you are correct that he would NOT bother thinking of these and no care, BUT these definitions of him never even existed during in his life time for him to worry about. It is safe to say that he is rolling over his grave learning that others have profited on his name and image. (even laugh at all of us debating on who he truly is)

So, as with more personal meaning and to pay homage;
As an inspirational figure and one who changed the course many lives, (including you, ronin) and with lesser men who try to emulate his greatness, I would bow to him as "A Hero"..... As I also expressed, he is A GREAT MAN.

I wholeheartedly agree, maybe this may seem to personal but i guess ill say it, i have not had the best father figure growing up in my life, i admire Bruce so much that i view him as a father to me, i do not even know him but without Bruce i probably never wouldve gotten involved in martial arts or philosophy, or even spirtiuality as well you name it...I may have lived a destructive lifestyle (which is everywhere and easy to fall into where i live) if not for me discovering Bruce as young as i did. So it may seem dumb to some, but i guess this is why it bothers me when he's made to be something he's not and people make money or get personal gain from it. I highly respect that man and can only wish to be half the man he ever was.

Just wanted to say i am a fighter i have been in martial arts half my life i started with kung fu then went to tkd which i have a blackbelt in and then to hipkido which i also have a blackbelt in and then to hwa rang do which i also have a blackbelt in lol 3blacks be4 the age of 16
i also boxed at age 13 for 5years to i was 18 along with the martial arts and i highschool i started wrestling at 18 i started combat russian sambo for any one who don't know its like judo wrestling with submission fightin
at 20 i start catch wrestling which is one of the best submission arts there is! yes even better then bjj some might disagree but it really is.

i started muay thai and thai boran 3years ago and i will just tell you this Tony would do very very well in mma
i heard tony did study judo so i will take it that he knows alot about ground fighting and i know he is no fool to it plus he is a little dude that is fast and very strong the guy is stronger then most middleweight fighters i know i don't know how m uch he weights but it look like he could make lightweight or 170 and any guy in there right mind who would stand with this guy is crazy thai boran is very hard on the body and every strike is put there to cause injury THAI BORAN IS NOT THE SAME AZZZZZ MUAY THIA IN THIA BORAN YOU DO NOT KICK LEGS FOR A HOUR EVER STRIKE IS TO CAUSE DAMAGE so with that said no not with ufc rules NOW IN PRIDE FC O HELL YEA!

Nice to meet you Catchwrestler...very impressive, great achievements!

I saw Pride FC the other day, and saw two amazing fights, Mohammad something against an irishman named Russio or something like that and another where this litte chubby dude KOed some 7 foot german(im guessing 7 he was big either way) in about 30 seconds into the fight. I have to say i liked it much better than UFC, i dont know why but it just appealed to me more, maybe it seemed more professional without all the Spike TV hype, haha. By the way Jaa is 140-145 i think around there. And you made a good point about Muay Thai and how its viewed as "Thai Boxing" but what Jaa does is actually Muay Boran, and much more lethal, i mean it was used by the Thai people in WAR 1,000's of years ago, lol thats gotta tell ya something.

If I misunderstood you hauntofmars, then my apologies.

Maxi, good to hear from you.

so tony just had an appearance in japan recently. pretty cool, eh?

Very cool, i watched the video of his stay there, seems like they have a real fun time traveling and hanging out together.

Ronin if you feel as if i misunderstood you as well, then i too apologize, other than that no worries, it was an enlightening conversation.

Maxi, good to hear from you.


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Always a pleasure to see you now and then, ronin

muay thai boran has a dinamic sistem, so i guess tony can open they head in two, ufc is a chanpionship without rules, and if we put tony in the ring he will kill them because there is a sistem in muay thai boran called '' the attack is also a counter attack'' and all mt boran boxers really like to hit the head and the head is a sacred point in all martial arts, that guys only think about crash and smash, jet li could kick their asses to because he really know many martial arts sistems, one of the most completly sistem is ''sanda'' also include in wushu and sanshou, and jet and tony have trained wushu as well we know, if exists a sanshou or wushu fighter in the forum really know about what sistem i'm talking about

Hey wtf why is everybody apoligizing for? THis was a great discussion with many interesting thoughts about Bruce Lee.

Anyways, I don't have the time to deeply explain myself now but regarding Jaa and Li fighting the UFC guys I don't think that they would stand a chance. Don't get me wrong now. They're both great fighter but not THAT kind of fighters. Let's take Jet Li first. He is the youngest winner of a wushu title. That is great. But The main reason he stopped competin g was because he seriously injured something in his knee. I do not think that Jet is a fighter. He is a great martial artist but considering his story and the fact that he is quiite old now he wouldn't have a chance. In an interview with him after Crdle 2 the Grave he said himself that if any of the K1 fighter that was in the movie would fight him he would be beaten easily. Said so himself.

Now Tony Jaa. He is surely a great fighter. A lot more physical than Jet Li I belive. He has studied many different styles and surely is knows how to handle himself. But I still don't belive he is good enough to beat any real K1 or UFC fighters. It's a big difference from being a fighter and doing MA movies. I'm not saying that doing movies is easier. I don't have a doubt that doing movies like Jaa does is if not more tempting on the body than going real fights. But still it's a movie. If Jaa was thrown into a fight he wouldn't do any flying elbows and knees to the chin and stuff like that.

As anurak said earlier. You should talk about how well Ting or Danny the Dog could fight against those guys that would be more interesting